In this second episode of our season-long exploration into “The Wallet,” Peterson Toscano and Diana Yañez dive into Relational Finance. This concept challenges the traditional divide between “financial experts” and “spiritual seekers.” Taking the Quaker theology of the “priesthood of all believers” and applying it to economics, we explore how taking personal responsibility for our money—and our institutional assets—leads to deeper integrity and more equitable power-sharing.

From the boardrooms of major corporations to micro-grant partnerships in Kenya and Sierra Leone, we look at what happens when we stop letting others stand between us and the truth of our financial impact.

In This Episode

• The Unmediated Truth: Jeff Perkins reflects on the Quaker commitment to taking responsibility for one’s beliefs, even when it comes to the “taboo” topic of money.
• Decolonizing Power: Traci Hjelt Sullivan discusses how Right Sharing of World Resources is shifting power from Western offices to local coordinators, moving from “saviorism” to genuine partnership.
• Ownership as a Tool: We explore how holding onto shares in a company (rather than just divesting) can be a powerful way to “hold the door open” for justice in corporate boardrooms.

Our Guests

Jeff Perkins

Jeff is the former executive director of Friends Fiduciary. He is a member of Chestnut Hill Friends Meeting in Philadelphia and lives in Philadelphia with his husband. His journey to Quakerism began at a nuclear test site protest in the 1980s, where the integrity of Quaker activists inspired his lifelong commitment to faith-led action.

Traci Hjelt Sullivan

Traci is the executive director of Right Sharing of World Resources (RSWR). With decades of non-profit management experience, including roles at Pendle Hill and Friends General Conference, Traci brings a global perspective to her work, having lived or worked in Ethiopia, Zambia, Botswana, Kenya, and beyond. She is a member of Green Street Meeting in Philadelphia.

Nathan Kleban

Nathan is the program and advancement associate at RSWR. His background includes serving as an environmental volunteer with the Peace Corps in Mali and working with the Alternatives to Violence Project (AVP). He currently lives in Iowa City, Iowa.

Amy Carr

Amy is the senior shareholder advocate at Friends Fiduciary. She utilizes her background in information science and data research to engage companies on ESG (environmental, social, and governance) issues, bringing Quaker values to the forefront of corporate dialogue.

Organizations Mentioned

• Friends Fiduciary Corporation: A Quaker nonprofit providing professional investment and planned giving services to Friends meetings, schools, and organizations.
• Right Sharing of World Resources: An organization providing seed grants to women’s self-help groups in the Global South, rooted in the Quaker testimony of simplicity.
• American Friends Service Committee (AFSC): A Quaker organization working for social justice, peace, and humanitarian service around the world.

Disclaimers

Quakers Today is a project of Friends Publishing Corporation. This season is sponsored by Friends Fiduciary and the American Friends Service Committee.

Investment Disclaimer: Friends Fiduciary unites Quaker values with expert investing. However, the information provided in this episode is for educational and informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment, financial, or tax advice. Please consult with a professional financial advisor regarding your specific situation.

Question for Listeners

How do you balance “expert advice” with your own spiritual leadings when it comes to your money? Have you ever felt a “dissonance” between your investments and your values?

Share your thoughts!

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Diana Gisel Yañez is an Investment Advisor Representative of Natural Investments PBLLC. Natural Investments is an independent Registered Investment Advisor. Quakers Today and Friends Journal are not a registered entity and are not an affiliate or subsidiary of Natural Investments. See our Disclosures and Disclaimers and read our Form CRS.

Introduction and Season Overview

Diana Yañez. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and does not constitute investment, legal, or tax advice. Listening does not create an advisory relationship.

Diana Yañez (00:00) This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and does not constitute investment, legal, or tax advice. Listening does not create an advisory relationship.

Nathan Kleban (00:14) How do we reorient ourselves towards community and towards relationships we can nurture each other outside of this very extractive economy? Instead of just like, how do we just make a lot of money and then use it to get our needs, but how do we do something?

Jeff Perkins (00:29) …mix of grounding in faith and the pragmatic and practical approach of business and the combination of those two. I don’t think they always have to be at odds

Peterson Toscano (00:00)

I’m Peterson Toscano.

Diana Yañez (00:01)

And I’m Diana Yañez.

Peterson Toscano (00:02) This is season six, episode two of the Quakers Today podcast, a project of Friends Publishing Corporation.

Diana Yañez (00:09) Now that we’ve laid the groundwork in our intro, we’re ready to dive into the four major themes that will define this season. We’re looking at how our faith can actually transform our relationship with money. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and does not constitute investment, legal, or tax advice. Listening does not create an advisory relationship.

Peterson Toscano (00:21) We’re starting today with relational finance. This idea of a “priesthood of all believers” economics, where we stop leaving money to the experts and start sharing financial power. From here, we’ll be moving into the dissonance—that friction between our Quaker testimonies and the reality of a global capitalist system.

Diana Yañez (00:41) And later this season we’ll look at reparative economics, exploring how meetings can move from simple charity to the active repair of historical harms. And finally, we’ll look at systemic stewardship, where we balance our own personal money biographies with the collective power of impact investing.

Peterson Toscano (00:59) Diana, as someone who is easily overwhelmed by money matters, I’m trusting you to keep me from bolting right now.

Diana Yañez (01:05) Don’t worry, I specialize in working with the financially skittish. We’re gonna take it slow. You’ve got this.

Peterson Toscano (01:12) Okay.

The Role of Responsibility and Direct Experience

Diana Yañez (01:13) It comes back to taking responsibility. Jeff Perkins, the former executive director of Friends Fiduciary, told me that Quakers have always been unmediated. We don’t let anyone stand between us and the truth, including our money.

Jeff Perkins (01:29) I’ll answer the first part of the question with… it was actually in the mid-80s. I was protesting at the nuclear test site out in Nevada and ran into other activist protesters who were Quakers. And I appreciated their faithful approach and their, I think, you know, integrity in their protesting. So for example, as some, you know, as protesters were not officially arrested, but put on a bus to be bused elsewhere and were asked names, the Quakers were giving their actual names. You know, some of the protesters would say, “Oh, Superman’s my name,” or, you know, whatever.

Jeff Perkins (02:18) So that piece of taking responsibility for one’s beliefs, and also an integrity about willing to accept the consequences of faithful action, really spoke to me.

Jeff Perkins (02:30) The fact that we can have a direct and immediate, unmediated experience with the divine ourselves. We don’t need a preacher or priest to moderate our interactions with what I call God—others call divine or spirit.

Diana Yañez (02:51) Unmediated. It’s such a Quaker word, but it applies to money too. We can’t just hand our values to a financial advisor and say, “Here, you deal with it.” We have to stay in the room.

Partnership and Power Sharing

Peterson Toscano (03:03) But Diana, that still feels like we’re playing by their rules. Why spend time in a boardroom if the system itself is the problem?

Diana Yañez (03:12) Because someone has to hold the door open for those who aren’t in the room. It’s important to continue the conversation and to build alternatives to our current “power over economics.” Traci Hjelt Sullivan, the executive director of Right Sharing of World Resources, explained to me that the real power isn’t in the boardroom—it’s in the partnership between equals.

Traci Hjelt Sullivan (03:36) How do I start to overcome this sense of otherness—this huge clash of otherness that we experience around class? How can I get over my white saviorism and feel like I’m really doing this in partnership? That they were really equals. Anyway, it’s kind of stunning that it took that long.

Traci Hjelt Sullivan (04:02) Just recently, as really part of a decolonization effort, we are in the middle of a power shift that is power sharing with our country coordinators much more dramatically, right? To actually have… actually make changes because they recommended it.

Traci Hjelt Sullivan (04:22) But we were in that same struggle. We are in that same struggle for women to better their lives. We just have a different part to play than you do. But it’s the same struggle.

Bridging the Professional and the Spiritual

Peterson Toscano (04:36) I love that phrasing: “a different part to play in the same struggle.” It takes the pressure off being the “expert” or the “savior” and puts it back on being a member of a community.

Diana Yañez (04:47) Exactly. And that’s what we’re calling relational finance. It’s not about the numbers; it’s about the relationships the numbers represent.

Traci Hjelt Sullivan (04:57) It’s about being willing to be transformed and lead lives of more integrity and community.

Jeff Perkins (05:04) That approach of a mix of the grounding in faith and the pragmatic and practical approach of business, and the combination of those two—I don’t think they always have to be at odds.

Traci Hjelt Sullivan (05:19) It’s about how can we support each other in leading good lives? We may have different definitions of what a good life is and what the markers are, but that we all do need community to thrive.

Reflecting on Wealth and Privilege

Diana Yañez (05:33) That thriving requires us to be honest about what we have and where it came from.

Traci Hjelt Sullivan (05:39) Do you even see what ancestral money is? Like, you know, I’m really clear that both my husband and I, our parents paid for our undergraduate education. And it’s taken some time to realize that that means… well, is lack of debt wealth? I think it is nowadays, right?

Jeff Perkins (06:00) I think that reflects the Quaker value of, I think, integrity, honestly, and just simplicity—you know, just doing the right thing and getting on with it.

Diana Yañez (06:14) Money can be such a taboo topic.

Jeff Perkins (06:16) Particularly among Quakers. I think that’s a fair statement. Yes.

Conclusion and Credits

Diana Yañez (10:37) And if you want to go deeper into how Quakers have wrestled with this, we highly recommend checking out the December 2015 issue of Friends Journal. The theme was economic justice and poverty, and it gets right into the heart of the priesthood of all believers in our wallets.

Peterson Toscano (10:53) There’s one article in particular by J. Jondhi Harrell titled, “Talk Less, Do More”. Jondhi doesn’t pull any punches. He asks if our committees and reading groups are actually changing the lives of people in our neighborhoods, or if they’re just decorations for our conscience.

Diana Yañez (11:12) Ouch. He makes a powerful point that relational finance isn’t a therapy session. He challenges us to move from theory to tangible things, like small business funding, green technology, and entrepreneurship that empowers families. It’s about whom we invest in, not just what.

Peterson Toscano (11:28) Another standout from that same issue is Pamela Haines’s piece, “Yes, It Does Take a Village”. Pamela reflects on how our current economic system tries to make us feel like we’re all on our own, competing for scarce resources.

Diana Yañez (11:43) Pamela reminds us that the priesthood of all believers applies to how we take care of each other’s needs. Whether it’s sharing tools, childcare, financial support, or housing , she argues that the village model is actually the most resilient economy we have. It’s about building a web of mutual reliance rather than individual security.

Peterson Toscano (12:04) You can find both of those articles along with the full December 2015 archive at friendsjournal.org. We’ll also put direct links in our show notes at quakerstoday.org. Now, Diana, you brought along a resource from outside the Friends Journal archives. And I have to admit, when I first saw the title, I thought it was a joke. I mean, you’re actually recommending the Jennifer Aniston movie, Friends with Money?

Diana Yañez (12:33) I am, and I’m promising it’s not just me looking for an excuse to talk about rom-coms.

Peterson Toscano (12:38) Yeah, okay. Well, I can see you’re really trying to help me understand this topic where I am. Thank you.

Diana Yañez (12:46) Well, even though it’s a Hollywood movie, it’s one of the best depictions of the money dissonance we’re talking about this season. The story follows four longtime friends: three are very wealthy, and one, played by Jennifer Aniston, is struggling financially.

Peterson Toscano (13:01) Yeah, yeah, I remember this awkwardness when they go out to dinner and some people want the expensive wine and, well, Aniston’s character is like—she’s counting her pennies for an appetizer.

Diana Yañez (13:13) Right. And this is exactly what relational finance is trying to heal. In the movie, money creates an unspoken wall. The wealthy friends feel guilty or pitying, and the struggling friend feels resentful and even invisible. They are friends with money, but the money is actually what’s keeping them from being truly in relationship.

Peterson Toscano (13:34) Yeah, so it’s a study in disparity. Okay, but how does that help us understand the Quaker perspective?

Diana Yañez (13:41) Well, think back to what Traci Hjelt Sullivan said about the spiritual burden of having too much. In the film you see that burden clearly. The wealthy characters are actually quite miserable and disconnected.

Peterson Toscano (13:53) Hmm, okay. And the priesthood of all believers part?

Diana Yañez (13:56) This film really shows us what happens when we don’t have that. When we treat money as a secret or source of shame, we can’t have a global household. We just have a bunch of individuals hiding behind their bank accounts. Watching this movie through a Quaker lens asks the question: how would these relationships change if they practiced right sharing instead of just having money?

Peterson Toscano (14:17) Wow, who knew? I never thought I’d be using Jennifer Aniston to understand economic justice, but I see it. I do. It’s about breaking down the walls that disparity builds between us.

Diana Yañez (14:29) Right. It’s a great conversation starter for a meeting or a study group. You can find Friends with Money on most streaming platforms. It’s a funny and actually quite painful look at the reality of money in our relationships

 

Peterson Toscano (15:52) Thank you for joining us for this episode of Quakers Today. We’d love to hear your thoughts on relational finance. Leave us a voice memo at 215-645-0132 or find the link in the show notes.

Peterson Toscano (16:00) You can also email us: [email protected].

Diana Yañez (16:03) For show notes, transcripts, and more episodes, go to QuakersToday.org.

Peterson Toscano (16:08) Season 6 of Quakers Today is sponsored by Friends Fiduciary. Friends Fiduciary unites Quaker values with expert investing. They serve more than 460 organizations with ethical portfolios, shareholder advocacy, and a deep commitment to justice and sustainability.

Peterson Toscano (16:26) In the 2025-26 proxy season, their outreach to more than 40 companies resulted in over 30 companies engaging in dialogue, and they filed 16 shareholder resolutions. From ethical business practices to advancing equity, Friends Fiduciary builds a better future through values-driven investing. Learn more at friendsfiduciary.org.

Diana Yañez (16:53) Season 6 is also sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee. The American Friends Service Committee is a Quaker organization that promotes a world free of violence, inequality, and oppression. Guided by the Quaker belief in the divine light within each person, AFSC works with people of all faiths and backgrounds to challenge unjust systems and promote lasting peace. Learn more at afsc.org.

Peterson Toscano (17:18) Thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. Next month, we’ll be leaning into the dissonance, exploring that tension between our deepest values and the traditional financial systems we live in every day.

Diana Yañez (17:32) Until then, walk gently and be mindful of the paths your money takes.