In this premiere episode of Season Five, co-hosts Peterson Toscano (he/him) and Sweet Miche (they/them) explore the urgent question: How do we balance peace and protest in today’s world?

Prophetic Voices for Troubled Times

Australian Friend Greg Rolles shares his experiences with nonviolent direct action, police intimidation, and the risks of faithful disobedience. Arrested more than 25 times for his activism, Greg challenges Quakers to move beyond polite pacifism.

“Peace is not the same as passivity. We think that peace is about being polite and nice and being quiet in public spaces. But peace is proactive, and it calls us to take action and take risk.” —Greg Rolles

Greg’s article We Are Having an Effect: The Necessity of Spiritual Resistance in Climate and Justice Activism appears in the September 2025 issue of Friends Journal (add link to article at FriendsJournal.org). You can also watch the extended interview on the Friends Journal YouTube channel (insert hyperlink).

Quaker Renewal in a Fast-Moving World

Jade Rockwell, pastor at West Elkton Friends Meeting in Ohio, lifts up the role of renewal and revival in Quaker practice today.

“Our emphasis has shifted in the 21st century more towards being a people called to action. We’re living in a time when inaction is risky. If we’re not able to respond to our world, bad things can happen—and we may be morally responsible if we aren’t able to be active.” —Jade Rockwell

You can find more of Jade’s ministry in the QuakerSpeak video, “Transforming Quakerism in Troubling Times” at QuakerSpeak.com or on the QuakerSpeak YouTube channel.

Anger, Grief, and Action

This month’s Friends Journal book review features Richard Rohr’s The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage (Convergent Books). Rohr highlights how the anger of prophets like Amos and Jeremiah matures into grief, then into transformative action. Read Wendy Cooler’s full review at FriendsJournal.org (insert hyperlink).

Game Recommendation

In addition to books, this season introduces a new segment: recommendations beyond the bookshelf. Peterson suggests Fate of the Fellowship, a cooperative board game by Matt Leacock, creator of Pandemic. Players work together in Tolkien’s Middle-earth to guide the Fellowship while resisting the growing Shadow. Learn more at BoardGameGeek or through major retailers.

Listener Responses

Friends share their favorite Quaker expressions—from “That of God in everyone” to “Hold you in the Light.” Eleanor from Colorado reflected,

“I think of all people as a Friend or a buddy. That framework helps me move through life more peacefully.”

We also received a thoughtful reply from Melinda Wenner Bradley in Pennsylvania. (Melinda first tried to email us, but our address was not working—apologies for that! The issue is now fixed.)

Melinda offered a twist:

“Instead of a favorite, I want to lift up a term I’d love for us to retire—First Day School. After 20 years in children’s religious education, I’ve seen how both ‘First Day’ and ‘School’ can feel outdated or off-putting. A visitor’s eyes often glaze over when we explain ‘First Day,’ and most children aren’t eager for more ‘school’ on Sundays. I prefer the term used in Britain Yearly Meeting—Children’s Meeting. It signals belonging and spiritual community, not another class. When my own meeting made this shift, we minuted our hope that the program would be a true community for children. Every time I share this idea in my travels, Friends respond with an enthusiastic ‘oh, yes!’”

Question for Next Month

Quaker gatherings often create space for specific affinity groups—such as Friends of Color, Young Adult Friends, or FLGBTQC (Friends for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer Concerns).

We want to hear from you: How has being rooted in a small group changed the way you share your voice in bigger settings?

Leave us a voicemail or text at 317-QUAKERS (317-782-5377). (+1 if outside the U.S.) You can also reply by email at [email protected] or on our social media channels.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Greg Rolles, We Are Having an Effect — Friends Journal (September 2025) [link]
• QuakerSpeak video: Transforming Quakerism in Troubling Times — QuakerSpeak.com
• Richard Rohr, The Tears of Things (Convergent Books) — [FriendsJournal.org book review link]
• Fate of the Fellowship board game — BoardGameGeek

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Watch the extended version of the podcast on Youtube

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Transcript for Quakers and Action

Peterson Toscano: In this episode of Quakers Today, we consider the question, How do we balance peace and protest?

Sweet Miche: You’ll hear about Richard Rohr’s new book, The Tears of Things. He offers a look at prophetic wisdom where anger and injustice can mature into grief and then into action.

Peterson Toscano: Jade Rockwell shares a vision for Quakers and other faith communities in these troubling times.

Sweet Miche: And we hear a powerful prophetic message from Australia. Greg Rolles tells us about his experiences with nonviolent direct action in an age of climate collapse and colonial violence. What does it mean to be faithfully disobedient?

Quakers Today is introducing a new feature for you: a video version.

I’m Sweet Miche.

Peterson Toscano: And I’m Peterson Toscano. This is season five, episode one of the Quakers Today podcast, a project of Friends Publishing Corporation. This season of Quakers Today is sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee and Friends Fiduciary. Hello, and thank you for joining Sweet Miche and me for the premiere of season five of Quakers Today. This season, we’re introducing a new feature for you, a video version of the podcast.

Sweet Miche: And you might be thinking, but it’s a podcast. Why do you need a video?

Peterson Toscano: Yeah, as an audiophile, I wondered the same thing, but turns out more and more people are enjoying their favorite podcasts in the form of YouTube videos. So we’re going to continue to produce a high-quality, edited, and polished audio version with all the bells and whistles, and we’ll provide you with a longer, loosely edited video.

Sweet Miche: This actually solves a problem we’ve faced in the last four seasons. Our guests have a lot to share, but we end up cutting a lot to keep our podcast under 30 minutes. The video version gives us more space for the guests, and you get to see our facial expressions and that weird purple halo thing hovering above Peterson’s head.

Peterson Toscano: It helps me to achieve that studio sound.

Sweet Miche: It’s adorable. And you’ll find the extended video version of this podcast on the Friends Journal YouTube channel, and we’ll have a link for it in our show notes at quakerstoday.org.

 Scott Sweet Miche interviews Australian Quaker Greg Rolles about climate change activism

Peterson Toscano: Now, today’s show comes at a time when many people are asking, How do I respond to the multiple crises happening in my country and the world around me?

 Sweet Miche: Yeah, we go deep today, and we hope you walk away with greater clarity and direction. It won’t all be heavy, though. Joy is a part of our resistance.

 Peterson Toscano: We’re going to end the show with Quaker terms. We Quakers have this whole vocabulary that can sound bizarre to newcomers. Personally, I’m a fan of the phrase, I’ll let the silence speak for me. Depending on how you say it, the phrase sounds profound or snarky.

 Sweet Miche: Definitely. I’ve heard it used both ways. I like the Quaker use of the phrase holding something in the light. A, uh, person, a concern, a difficult truth. And that idea of holding connects so well with our episode today. We’re uh, going to be talking with people who are holding the grief of the world, the anger of injustice, and the hope for a better future all at the same time.

 Peterson Toscano: Yes, people like Australian Quaker Greg Rolles. Sweet Miche, you spoke to Greg for almost an hour about direct nonviolent activism. The authorities arrested Greg over 25 times for his disruptive activism, including actions with Blockade Australia. This is a network established to address global environmental destruction. In the world of social change movements, Greg is known as a rebel who employs nonviolent tactics. He believes these actions are working. For the September 2025 issue of Friends Journal, he wrote the article We’re Having an Affect: The Necessity of Spiritual Resistance in Climate Change and Justice Activism.

 Sweet Miche: Greg read part of his article for me and shared some experiences of activism, um, and arrests. He offered a strong critique of Quakers and Quaker meetings that talk a lot about peace and justice but act passively. He criticized the tendency for contemporary middle-class Quakers to outsource their activism, um, to professionals. His words are prophetic and um, like.

Peterson Toscano: With most prophets, Greg’s words will provoke, offend, and challenge some of you. That’s basically the job of a prophet. Greg also provides words of encouragement and guidance for young activists.

Sweet Miche: For this segment, Peterson listened to the conversation, uh, multiple times. He isolated Greg’s words and edited them down, uh, through a process known as erasure. This distills the interview into a raw message while maintaining the integrity of the conversation. After you hear Greg read excerpts of his article and share his message, you may be curious to listen to our whole conversation. It’s available on Friends Journal’s YouTube page.

Greg Rolles: I’ve been a Friend and connected to Friends since 2012. Even though I give us as a society a lot of crap about what we should be doing, they still accept me and support me, which is pretty nice considering how critical I can be. And I’ll never say to anyone like, you’re not doing enough because I don’t know your circumstances or your situations. But I am saying to us as a whole, as a community, what are we doing in this time of extreme violence and genocide and colonial climate collapse? Police have raided places where I live three times. Angry magistrates have condemned me and sworn to make an example of my behaviour so that others will not follow. People lodged in the system of violent privilege only react this way when there is an effect, when there is a fear of an ongoing effect in which more people are involved, the climate crisis is overwhelming.

 Friends have descended from a spiritual lineage that thrives in the overwhelming and stagnates in the comfortable. This is not to say we seek to be overwhelmed or to do too much. Simply that when the world at large seems overwhelming, it can be easy to trust in the light and let it guide our steps. For far too long, we have not taken steps on this journey, concerning ourselves more with the ways of the world than with the calling of the light. The world is a scary and distracting place. I think the point is that when you try, when you engage with the problems of our time, colonialism, violence, state violence, all the big oppressive things which are causing us harm, you can’t lose when you move, even if you, you know, you might lose your worldly wealth, even if you might lose your status and your respectability. As we face climate and colonial crises, we have to invest our talents in change; otherwise, we’re going to lose everything. And the climate crisis and watching the genocide in Gaza, the war in West Papua, and you know, what’s happening in Sudan, this is all from Western consumption.

Quakers in the West, I feel, we’re just not answering that call. Like I’ve often said, we should just go sit in the driveways of the water lawmakers until they send us to jail. And I get people who sort of say, well, that won’t have an effect. Well, maybe not. Is faithfulness about effect? Are our values about effect, or are they about our integrity? So I think it’s about literally trying to stick our faith, stick into the spoke of the wheel that’s crushing us. How we do that, I don’t know, but that’s why we’re people of faith. And I think it’s about building community in action as we go, rather than what we’re doing now in the west, which is stagnating and trusting in the middle-class ways of paying people off to do things, which is part of the problem and upholds the problem, in my opinion, rather than actually does anything about it. The middle-class kind of whiteness has definitely taken the peace testimony over.

For those of us in the West, we have this big peace testimony, and Friends love to talk about peace, but peace is not the same as passivity. We think that peace is about being polite and nice and being quiet in public spaces, and there’s a place for that. But what peace is, it’s proactive, and it calls us to take action. And take risks. Uh, I’ve been to lots of rallies and protests and blockades where young people do get angry and they do shout at police and they do these things. I, uh, don’t condemn them. I don’t see that as violent. I actually see that as part of the peace testimony because they’re speaking up for the injustice, for the violence, for the hurt. Uh, I see the state, and so-called the Australian state, as incredibly violent, as incredibly murderous and vindictive and vicious. And sometimes Friends, at least in my experience, they sort of see both sides as equal. They want to condemn both sides.

And I’m just like, that is not the reality of ripping babies away from families, which still happens in record numbers on this continent. I’m not going to condemn people who turn up fighting for our future and against injustice. I’m not going to condemn them. I’m going to say, good job. If you want to do property damage, like, you’re probably just going to go straight to jail and get caught, but if that’s what you want to do, this thing is killing us. Of course it’s okay. And I’m more involved and interested in supporting people doing that stuff. Even if they swear or, you know, they don’t have the perfect politics.

At least they’re trying to be active in the face of oppression instead of supporting people who are doing that work or saying, Well, we’ll come with you and we’ll support you emotionally, and maybe we can work together. They tend to separate or segregate from that. Then just pay professionals to do the job, and the professionals are not doing the job. It’s going to just keep getting worse. So I’d say now is the time to take risks rather than waiting until fascism is fully in hold. And if that feels too much, just consider the consequences of our inaction.

And there’s lots of ways to disrupt things without necessarily getting arrested. That’s also avenues you can take, but be disruptive. Slow down the death machine as best you can. That’s what we need to do. And I think that’s the spiritual nexus of Quakerism. Be scared, but act as you can. That can be in all forms, whether you are going to sit in the driveway and block a weapons company. But it also means talking about the privilege and things, even if you don’t fully understand it. I don’t fully understand the violence and privilege and how it affects my life. Don’t be scared to talk about it or challenge it and trust your guts. People with respectability, and maybe elders they will subconsciously protect their privilege. Don’t be scared about it. Be scared, but act anyway.

And if you get it wrong. It’s better to get it wrong and talk to your community about accountability than it is to not act 100%. There’s no room for polite peace, only active peace. The world is a scary and distracting place. But then there’s the light. The light that made Quaker founder, uh, George Fox walk away from his home life and into the fields against all common sense. That made many more of our ancestors walk knowingly into danger, imprisonment, and death to keep the Quaker witness in the public eye and the truth available to all. Without those Friends risking their talents, we would have no society and no teachings to learn from. If people from our spiritual ancestry had considered the best practical use of their time, they would have stayed at home and buried their talents.

If we rest in our comfortable lives, there will be no descendants to pass our spiritual gifts onto. We only need to move. Sitting this one out is to bury our talents. I don’t have an answer to all of our problems. That’s why I wrote the article. It’s about, what is the light telling me to do now? You know, and the main problem, particularly for Quakers and other people of faith, is that we just kind of get overwhelmed and we go into our own worlds where it’s about retirement and how I can do advocacy stuff that’s respectable, that the wider society will be, oh, I write letters and isn’t that nice? Whereas what the light is calling us to do is to witness and get in the way of these things. Actually, we’ve got to remember L, O, R, E, the old law of how to look after land and look after each other. That’s the call, and that’s what we, as prodigal children of the Creator, need to remember.

[0:06:15] >> Jade Rockwell: I think one of the things that our meetings and churches have struggled with is how do you still hold space for that present action of the Holy Spirit? That’s becoming harder and harder because our world is moving at such a fast rate now. It’s like we’re being bombarded with all of these conditions. We need to find practices in our meetings that allow us to do that. My name is Jade Rockwell. Pronouns are she, her. I live in Richmond, Indiana, and I am one of the pastors at West Elkton Friends Meeting in West Elkton, Ohio. Renewal is a perpetual part of, like, a healthy organization having healthy processes by which we evaluate where we’re at and connect to what’s going on around us. And in a way that’s adaptive and responsive to our, uh, living reality.

Quakerism itself started as a revival or renewal process for Christianity at a time when some folks were feeling like the existing church wasn’t possible to reform theologically. Our emphasis has shifted in the 21st century more towards we are a people called to action. We’re living in a time when we can see that inaction is risky. If we’re not able to respond to our world, bad things can happen. And we may be morally responsible if we aren’t able to be active. The difficulties with attracting young people is the sort of sense that Friends aren’t able to act in a responsive way to the world. And sometimes people may say, well, that’s the Quaker way. The Quaker way is slow.

This stagnation that we experience is not unique to Quakers. Right. This is a very human thing. Our institutions tend to calcify with time. Sometimes they like to reactively shut down creative solutions or innovations that may actually be the way forward. But one of the amazing things that institutions can do is that if they figure out a way to hold space for that creativity and, uh, innovation in life to continue, they can actually live a lot longer than any of us can. And that could be pretty powerful and a pretty good way for God to work in our world over generations.

Sweet Miche: That was Jade Rockwell from the QuakerSpeak video, transforming Quakerism in Troubling Times. A, uh, big thank you to Layla Cuthrell for filming and editing these videos. You can watch them on YouTube or QuakerSpeak.com Jade mentioned the Quaker Connect program. It’s a resource for meetings and churches looking to build deeper involvement in their communities. You can learn more at quakerconnect.org.

[0:07:00] >> Peterson Toscano: You also heard Greg Rolles talking about and reading from his article. We are having, in effect, the Necessity of Spiritual Resistance in Climate and Justice Activism. It appears in the September 2025 issue of Friends Journal and at friendsjournal.org

Sweet Miche: My conversation with Greg came at the perfect time. I’ve been struggling lately with our troubling times. I’m angry at the current administration for stripping rights away from immigrants, trans children, and the people in Gaza, and so many others. And even little things can set off my anger right now. Like when cars park in the bike lane, and I want to scream at them.

Peterson Toscano: A lot of us feel outrage right now. The Quaker peace testimony isn’t about shutting down the anger, though. It’s about acknowledging it and allowing it to transform into something else. In the August 2025 issue of Friends Journal, Windy Cooler reviewed Richard Rohr’s new book. It’s called the Tears of Things Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage. Rohr starts with those famously angry Hebrew prophets like Amos and Jeremiah, right?

Sweet Miche: The ones who are always shouting about injustice. And Rohr points out something that we often miss. Their anger matures into grief. Rohr suggests that the prophetic path isn’t about being right, but about empathy. It’s not about standing apart and judging. It’s about suffering with the world. The book is the Tears of Prophetic Wisdom, for an Age of Outrage. It’s written by Richard Rohr and published by Convergent Books. You can read more of Windy Cooler’s review at friendsjournal.org. Peterson, you also have a recommendation for us.

Peterson Toscano: That’s correct. This season, in addition to the book review we share with you, our listeners, we’re going also to share a non-book recommendation.

This episode of Quakers Today is sponsored by Friends Fiduciary

So today I have a game for you. Fate of the Fellowship. It’s a brand new cooperative board game designed by Matt Laycock. He’s the creator of the very popular and award-winning cooperative game Pandemic. In The Fate of the Fellowship, players step into J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth. They guide the Fellowship while resisting the growing shadow. It’s a story, rich, strategic, and you win or lose together. That’s what makes it cooperative. You can find Fate of the Fellowship at Fantasy Flight Games on BoardGameGeek and through most major game retailers. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Quakers Today. If you liked what you heard today and you listened to our show on Spotify or Apple Podcast or YouTube videos, please take a moment to rate and review. Make Sweet Miche and me very happy by sharing Quakers Today with your Friends and on your social media. Quakers Today is written and produced by me, Peterson, Toscano, and me, Sweet Miche.

Sweet Miche: Music on UH Today’s show comes from Epidemic Sound

Peterson Toscano: Season five of Quakers Today is sponsored by Friends Fiduciary. Friends Fiduciary combines Quaker values with expert investment management. They serve more than 460 organizations with ethical portfolios, shareholder advocacy, and a deep commitment to justice and sustainability. Friends Fiduciary blends Quaker principles with smart mission-driven investing. With 100% of revenue supporting their mission and a 100% Quaker board. They help hundreds of faith-based groups invest ethically and affordably. Learn more at friendsfiduciary.org.

Sweet Miche:  This season is also sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee. AFSC works at the forefront of social change to meet urgent needs, challenge injustice, and build peace. Did you know AFSC helped thousands of Jewish and non-Jewish refugees during World War II to resettle in the US today? AFSC works towards a future where everyone can thrive, has access to legal status, and is safe from detention and deportation. Learn how you can take action for immigrant safety, dignity, and well-being at https://afsc.org/action/tell-dhs-immigrants-make-our-communities-stronger

Peterson Toscano: Visit QuakersToday.org to see our show notes and a full transcript of this episode, and check out the extended video of today’s episode on the Friends Journal YouTube page. And if you stick around after the closing, you’re going to hear listeners’ responses to the question What is your favorite Quaker term or phrase? Something common among Friends but odd to outsiders.

Sweet Miche: Thank you, Friends, for listening. May you have clarity and courage as you engage with the world. In a moment, you’ll hear listeners’ voicemails about common phrases among Quakers.

Quaker gatherings often provide spaces for the spiritual needs of affinity groups

They may be odd to outsiders, but first, we’ll share the question for next month. Quaker gatherings often provide spaces for the spiritual needs of affinity groups. This includes spaces for Friends of Color or Young Adult Friends.

Peterson Toscano: Mhm. Or the community I’ve been a part of for years. It’s flgbtqc. Say that fast. F L G B T Q C. It stands for Friends for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer Concerns. Okay, so here is the question. How has being rooted in a small group changed the way you share your voice in bigger settings? And it doesn’t have to be a Quaker group, just any kind of small group that was supportive in that way.

 Peterson Toscano: Yeah.

Sweet Miche: And yeah, to respond, you can leave a voice memo with your name and the town where you live. The number to call is 317-QUAKERS. That’s 317-782-537-7317, and plus one. If calling from outside the USA, you can also send us an email, which is podcast@friendsjournal.org, I have these contact details in our show notes over at quakerstoday.org

[0:11:30] Now, we hear answers to the question: What is your favorite Quaker term that is strange to outsiders?

Peterson Toscano: Answers to the question What is your favorite Quaker term that is common among Friends but strange to outsiders? On social media, Amy Ward Brimmer wrote ‘way opens’ or ‘way will open,’ obviously. And we also received the following voicemails.

Eleanor: My name is Eleanor, I’m calling from Colorado, and I’m fairly New to Quakers and still learning the lingo. But my favorite Quaker jargon is Friend with a capital F. I struggled with road rage, and before I found Quakerism, something that really helped me overcome that and have more peaceful experiences in traffic was a comment from the Internet that suggested calling people that are cutting you off buddy instead of cursing them. When I found Quakerism and I learned about the friend, I felt like that was a framework that I should apply beyond the road to other areas of my life and to think of all people as a friend or a buddy. So thank you, Friends. I really enjoy the show, and I’m looking forward to learning more jargon in your next episode. My dog was whining a little bit there, so, uh, hopefully that didn’t just wreck the entire voicemail. But, uh, she’s very sweet and happy, and she just saw a squirrel. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Ken: My name is Ken. I live in southeastern Pennsylvania. My favorite Quaker term is that there is that of God in everyone.

Tom Hoban: Rhode Island, Quaker and Episcopalian. My favorite Quaker saying is, I will hold you in the light. I will hold you in the light. I often use that. Many people say, I’ll pray for you, and some take offense, but I think that’s a beautiful image. Thank you so much. Enjoying your podcast.

Peterson Toscano: Thanks to everyone who sent in the voicemails. They’re my favorite. I love the voicemails a lot. And you have another chance to do it again with our next question. Miche, what is our question for next month?

Sweet Miche: Our question for next month is, how has being rooted in a small group changed the way you share your voice in bigger settings?

Peterson Toscano: Yeah, let us know. Find out all the details at [email protected].