In this episode of Quakers Today, we ask, “Who is a historical figure you admire but whose words or actions trouble you?”

Co-hosts Peterson Toscano (he/him) and Miche McCall (they/them) discuss the complex legacies of two notable Quakers: George Fox and Richard Nixon. 

George Fox

Johanna Jackson and Naveed Moeed are a part of this year’s cohort of the Quaker Coalition for Uprooting Racism. They co-authored the Friends Journal article “George Fox Was a Racist: How Do Fox’s Writings on Slavery Impact Quakers Today?“ to explore Fox’s legacy on his 400th birthday. 

Johanna and Naveed discuss how George Fox, a revered Quaker founder, held and expressed pro-slavery views. Fox’s writings showed his alignment with the status quo of the time, defending the institution of slavery rather than challenging it. The authors explore how contemporary Quakers cannot undo the harm caused by historical figures like George Fox but can address it through acts of reparation. They also stress the importance of facing Quaker history honestly, recognizing the patterns of oppression that have persisted, and striving to transform behaviors and systems that perpetuate inequality and injustice today.

Naveed says: 

Kintsugi is the art of repairing something that is broken with a gold powder that is combined with an adhesive. And what it does is it doesn’t repair in the way that we traditionally think of repair…What we need as Quakers is a form of Kintsugi, where we don’t choose to paper the past, or repair it, or replace it or fix it so that it never happened. We need to acknowledge that it happened and how it happened, and where the break occurred, and then put some gold where the break was to bridge the gap.

Johanna Jackson is a White Friend and member of Three Rivers Meeting (New England Yearly Meeting), a group reclaiming Quaker practice for today’s time. Her ministry is Forward in Faithfulness. 

Naveed Moeed is a British-born Pakistani and a Muslim-Quaker member of Chapel Hill (N.C.) Meeting. He is part of the American Theatre Critics Association and a semi-professional photographer. You can find his work at fractalsedge.net. 

Richard Nixon

Larry Ingle describes how Richard Nixon, the 37th President of the United States, grew up in a Quaker household. However, Larry points out that Nixon’s political career often contrasts these principles.

Larry Ingle is the author of Nixon’s First Cover-up: The Religious Life of a Quaker President, a biography of Nixon’s religious ideologies and background, and First Among Friends: George Fox & the Creation of Quakerism. He retired from the History Department at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga and now lives in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

This discussion features an excerpt from the video Was Richard Nixon a Quaker? See more videos like this on the QuakerSpeak YouTube channel or at QuakerSpeak.org. 

Reviews and Recommendations

Quakers in Politics by Carl Abbott and Margery Post Abbott describes a Quaker approach to politics and encourages Friends to leverage our unique willingness to listen and seek common ground. The book is part of the Quaker Quicks, a series of short paperbacks useful for outreach and religious education.  Paul Buckley reviewed Quakers in Politics for the June/July 2024 issue of Friends Journal. You can read the review for free and hundreds of others at Friends Journal Book Reviews. 

Question for next month

Here’s our question for next month: What does Quakerism have to offer society in 2024? Quakers Today seeks wisdom and understanding in a rapidly changing world. What do you think Quakerism has to offer society in 2024?

Leave a voice memo with your name and the town where you live. The number to call is 317-QUAKERS, that’s 317-782-5377. +1 if calling from outside the U.S.

You can now follow Quakers Today on Instagram, TikTok, and the platform now known as X.

 

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Transcript for Reckoning with Quaker Racism

SPEAKERS

Johanna Jackson, Larry Ingle, Miche McCall, Naveed Moeed, Peterson Toscano, Ted Heck, Sharlee DiMenichi, Ricky Juliusson, 

Miche McCall  00:00

On this episode of Quakers Today, we ask, Who is a historical figure you admire but whose words or actions trouble you?”

Peterson Toscano  00:12

We consider the lives of two famous breakers, George Fox and Richard Nixon. And Mitch tells us about the new book Quakers in Politics. I’m Peterson Toscano,

Miche McCall  00:22

and I’m Miche McCall. This is season three, episode four of the Quakers Today podcast, a project of Friends Publishing Corporation.

Peterson Toscano  00:30

This season of Quakers Today is sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee.

Peterson Toscano  00:42

The June/July issue of Friends Journal includes articles about Quaker founder George Fox and what Quakers Today has to say about Fox on his 400th birthday.

Miche McCall  00:54

For the issue, Johanna Jackson and Naveen Moeed co-wrote the article, “George Fox Was a Racist.” 

Johanna Jackson  01:01

I can see how people would be surprised when they read the title of our article, but I think it’s important to recognize our conflicted history rather than turn away from it.

Miche McCall  01:12

Johanna and Naveed convincingly outline that George Fox was pro-slavery.

Johanna Jackson  01:17

“While in Barbados in 1671, George Fox had cause to write a letter to the authorities, which has been titled for the governor and his counsel and assembly. In this letter, Fox assured the governor that Quakers had no interest in disrupting the order of things. He wrote, ‘Another slander and lie they have cast upon us is namely, that we should teach Black people to rebel.’ He said that this was a thing, ‘we do utterly abhor and detest in from our hearts,’ He further defended, ‘The Lord knows it, who is the searcher of all hearts and knows all things, and so can witness and testify for us that this is a most egregious and abominable untruth in some ways.; Fox could not have gone further beside himself with the status quo. 

Johanna Jackson  02:11

When Naveed and I were in the Quaker Coalition for Uprooting Racism’s cohort meeting on Zoom, and we each shared back what we learned. One person said, “I did not know that the rot went so deep.” The evidence is really clear. He told enslaved people to be obedient, to be meek, to obey their masters and to become Quaker. 

Johanna Jackson  02:35

Fox told enslaved people not to steal; there seems to be something so screwy, so toppled in on itself, about telling someone not to steal when their lives had been stolen from them. And then, I kept reading his journals after he left the island of Barbados and he goes to what’s now New England. I kept waiting for the part that he would express sadness, or remorse, or grief and encountering such like a system that harms so many people. And that just didn’t show up in his Journal. Never. I wondered why this was a story. I don’t know. 

Johanna Jackson  03:15

Or is it one of those stories I did know in some part of my brain I blocked out. Like for me, I blocked out the fact that William Penn was an enslaver. It took a little while to integrate that sentence with William Penn. I had some resistance to taking that in. It can be uncomfortable to admit that George Fox was a racist. I think it’s important to recognize our conflicted history rather than turn away from it.

Peterson Toscano  03:51

I didn’t want to believe that George Fox, with all his enlightenment, and did not recognize and renounced the horrors of chattel slavery. Read the article to see for yourself the overwhelming evidence of his racism. Quakers have a founder with a major flaw.

Miche McCall  04:16

Naveed points out harm has occurred and continues today.

Naveed Moeed  04:23

We can’t. We can’t repair George Fox’s harm, and we can’t repair even the harms that Quakers are doing today. But what can do is reparation, which is different from repairing. It is a balm. After the fact,. It is healing.

Miche McCall  04:46

Someone listening might be thinking, “Okay, so what? Here’s another white man who supported an oppressive white supremacist colonial system.”

04:58

When it comes to “So What? it is such a good question. Because, well, I don’t really know how people receive it. Everybody’s brain is different. But when I look back at what we wrote the things that stand out to me as a white person, there’s invitations to be more humble, more observant, more perceptive of what is actually going on.

Peterson Toscano  05:22

So what now? What is next for us to do?

05:25

Naveed Moeed There isn’t an answer, to “What next?” But there is the idea that we have to keep going. If we keep going, and if we keep querying, and if we keep testing and testing and testing, the ideas and the notions that we have now, and how they were rooted in behaviors of the past, we can decide for ourselves, what works and what doesn’t work. But it’s not a one-and-done process. We have to just keep going. The idea of continuous revelation is that what is true in the now may not be true in the future. And so we have to continue to examine, discern, thresh, test, do those things that weren’t good up as greatness, and keep changing. Just keep going on and keep changing.

Miche McCall  06:37Naveed clearly states that we cannot undo the past and we must not erase it.

Naveed Moeed:It’s like the Japanese art form Kintsugi. Kintsugi is the art of repairing something that is broken with a gold powder that is combined with an adhesive. And what it does is it doesn’t repair in the way that we traditionally think of repair. For example, if I have a broken phone with a broken screen, I can go and get it repaired and have the screen look like new. But what Kintsugi does is it highlights where the break was and creates something new in its place. There’s something equally treasured and equally beautiful. What we need as Quakers is a form of Kintsugi, where we don’t choose to paper the past, or repair it, or replace it or fix it so that it never happened. We need to acknowledge that it happened and how it happened, and where the break occurred, and then put some gold where the break was to bridge the gap.

Miche McCall  07:52

We can commit to digging into Quaker history and our current practices and structures. We keep going and we keep learning. We can also provide a model for other groups facing troubled leaders and questionable pasts.

08:08

Johanna Jackson A key piece of what the Quaker Coalition for our Uprooting Racism is teaching me to do is to notice patterns of oppression or patterns of faithfulness and that just think, how am I contributing to any of those? Where else do I see those in my life? What do I think are the roots of this pattern? I think it’s really striking for a faith that values equality. We have some hard conversations to do about how that looks in our social spheres in our structure, the voices of which prophets are embraced and which are shunned. I’m less concerned with, well, how do I think about George Fox now, and I’m more concerned with how can we change the patterns that he began and that is in some way continue.

Peterson Toscano  09:03

Today, I see a lot of confusion over addressing historical and contemporary figures who fail to meet societal expectations. The default is to cancel them. The idea of canceling someone, commonly known as canceled culture, involves withdrawing support from public figures or organizations after they’ve done or said something objectionable or offensive. Historians in the public may reexamine the contributions and actions of historical figures. 

Miche McCall  09:35

How do we face history honestly and live with the discomforts of moral incongruity in heroes of old and people today? How do we consider the words and actions of people like William Penn, a historically important Quaker who enslaved people? How do we reevaluate the land where our meetinghouses stand, knowing that it may well be on stolen land? What about when we, as individuals or groups, fall short?

10:02

If my life were judged in 400 years, what might people notice for my life? That may be a good question for any person to sit with. Is a disconcerting question and a call to accountability. If someone judged your life and 400 years, what do you think they might notice?

Naveed Moeed  10:29

George Fox was racist, and he perpetuated the notion of slavery. Friends reading this article may try to argue way out of this, but the evidence is clear, and we should embrace it. This is not to make us complicit in perpetuating this travesty. What we are asked to do as Quakers is understand what it means to have leaders in our faith who are deeply flawed. We should examine those behaviors and words of wisdom, the way we do things in our meeting, or yearly meeting that come from the way white folk did things in the past. How can we change them to ways that embrace everyone? How can we change our learned behavior to one that is just for all?

Miche McCall  11:20

That was Naveed Moeed and Johanna Jackson. They coauthored the article, “George Fox was a Racist. How does that impact Quakers Today”? You can read their article in the June/July issue of Friends Journal. There, you will also find a variety of reflections on George Fox’s history, Impact, and legacy. These articles are all available on friendsjournal.org. 

Peterson Toscano  11:43

Miche and I welcome your thoughts about the article and our conversation with the authors. Email us podcast(@)friends journal.org.  Or call our listener voicemail line 317-Quakers.

Miche McCall  11:58

Today, as we explore the troubling aspects of George Fox’s legacy, shedding light on his racist attitudes despite his foundational role in Quakerism, we want to consider another controversial figure within the Quaker community. Richard Nixon. Wait?! Richard Nixon? ,

Peterson Toscano  12:27

Yearh, Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon, known for his tumultuous presidency, infamous Watergate scandal, and documented racist remarks. Nixon’s life and actions have often raised the question, “Was he truly a Quaker in practice and belief?”

Miche McCall  12:40

After Quaker historian Larry Engel wrote George Fox’s biography, First Among Friends, he studied Richard Nixon and his religion. He published the book “

Peterson Toscano  13:01

Larry addresses the question, “Was Richard Nixon a Quaker?”

Larry Ingle  13:12

If Nixon had been sitting here, and you’d ask Nixon that question, he would say, I’m a Quaker because of the Quaker heritage of my mother, who was Hannah Milhouse. She came to California, Southern California from Indiana, and they have a long Quaker heritage going back to the 17th century. He never attended after his mother died in 67. Whether he’s a pacifist or not, whether he lives by the testimonies are really not important, in his view of things, apparently, at least if you look at his memoir, in which he devotes three paragraphs, out of what 670-page book, three paragraphs to his religion, that’s all he needs to say. 

Larry Ingle  13:57

I think that Richard Nixon saw that the popular appeal of a certain variety of Quakers would redound to his political advantage. He did this because those actions in support of the Underground Railroad in resisting the war, that those positions would redound on in 1959 and 1960 to his benefit. they would remind people that Quakers were people who oppose slavery, who not only oppose it, but aided slaves to escape. Quakers have no creed. You can’t go anywhere and say Quakers believed it. Therefore, Quakers have developed testimonies. The most basic of these testimonies is a testimony of integrity because that testimony assumes that If we will do and be what we say we are. 

Larry Ingle  15:04

After looking at Richard Nixon’s life and studying as many memoirs, as many recollections as you can find and have been kept, and produced, the one I found most valuable talked about Richard Nixon as setting up in the White House a Us versus them category, that we’re different from everybody else. We’re doing what’s right; everybody else is doing what’s wrong. And that’s the basis of the enemies list, a list of enemies of the administration. For me, the testimony of integrity undercuts and destroys an enemies list. Everyone is a human being. Quakers insist that there is something invisible in human beings; we call that of God in people. Nixon seldom saw that of God and everyone.

Peterson Toscano  16:21

That was Quaker historian and author Larry Engel and an excerpt from the QakerSpeak video entitled, “Was Richard Nixon a Quaker?”

Miche McCall  16:29

You’ll find this QuakerSpeak video and the QuakerSpeak channel on YouTube, or is visit QuakerSpeak.com. 

Miche McCall  16:42

2024 is a big year. It’s a presidential election here in the US, and Quakers across the globe are celebrating George Fox’s 400th birthday. Fox wasn’t a person who changed the political system from the inside. He’s known for walking barefoot in the snow and singing loudly in prison. Annoying all of his jailers, not someone who might put on a suit and run for office. What does a Quaker politician or lobbyist bring to a system many consider compromised and corrupt? How might Quakerism act as an oppositional faith that speaks truth to power instead of wielding it? When does a Quaker in politics need to walk away from the system? 

Miche McCall  17:22

Carl Abbott and Marjorie Post-Abbott map how Quakers have lobbied kings, served on legislatures, and shaped international policy since our early early days. Quakers and Politics addresses the inclination of some friends to disengage from flawed offices and policies. Instead, the writers encourage us to leverage our unique willingness to listen and seek common ground. I’m grateful to the authors for writing this book and to Paul Buckley for reviewing it in Friends Journal. We can’t continue having Nixon as the most politically powerful Quaker. The book Quakers and Politics by Marjorie Post-Abbott and Carl Abbott. It’s a part of the Quaker Quick series, a set of short books perfect for religious education. You can buy it at QuakerBooks.org. You can read Paul Buckley’s review in Friens Journal. Each month, Friends Journal includes reviews of several excellent books. Visit FriendsJournal.org for more reviews.

Peterson Toscano  18:34

And for you listening. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Quakers Today. We definitely would like to hear from you.

Miche McCall  18:41

Many thanks to everyone who is sharing Quakers Today with friends and on social media.

Peterson Toscano  18:48

Quakers Today is written and produced by me, Peterson Toscano

Miche McCall  18:52

and me, Miche McCall. Music on today’s show comes from Epidemic Sound. Season Three of Quakers Today is sponsored by American Friends Service Committee. 

Peterson Toscano  19:03

Do you want to challenge unjust systems and promote lasting peace? The American Friends Service Committee, or AFSC, works with communities worldwide to drive social change. Their website features meaningful steps you can take to make a difference. Find out how you can become part of AFSC’s global community of changemakers. Visit afsc.org.

Miche McCall  19:30

Visit QuakersToday.org to see our show notes and a full transcript of this episode. You can follow Quakers Today on Instagram, X, and TikTok.

Peterson Toscano  19:42

Stick around after the closing to hear listeners’ responses to the question, “Who was a historical figure you admire but whose words or actions trouble you?”

Miche McCall  19:51

Thank you, friend. We look forward to spending more time with you soon. 

Miche McCall  20:25

Peterson, I mentioned earlier that Quakerism might provide a model for other groups facing troubled leaders and questionable pasts. You came out of an extreme right-wing Christian past. How do you see former leaders in your life and past?

Peterson Toscano  20:41

Wow, yeah, that’s true. I was in a deeply anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro-war, intense Christian past. And I fully embraced it until I was in my 30s. Not only do I have to think about the former leaders, but even myself.I mean, I did things back in those days that are so troubling for me. Like, I was totally anti-gay. I tried to destroy the gayness in myself. Sure, I had leaders that assisted me, but it was my own personal mission to kill the gay in me and to oppose any legislation that would give LGBTQ+ people rights. And I look back at that person who seems so different from the person today. And I can’t erase that; I also can’t erase the fact that, at that time, I really believed I was filled with love and that I was doing the right thing. And that is something I don’t ever want to forget. Because I want to recognize that of God and my opponents, and that they may have ideas that are so wrong, but they think are holy and good and right. It’s so easy to judge where someone’s coming from by what they’re doing. And I don’t think that’s effective in activism, for sure. I’ve had to learn how to see that of God and myself, and in everyone around me, without in any way excusing behavior that was harmful.

Peterson Toscano  20:42

Wow. Yeah. In politics, I often think that people are legislating in bad faith. But thinking about your history, even if someone has a belief that truly harms other people, it doesn’t mean that they think that they hate other people. Yeah. And that was really moving to hear you say. Of course, there are going to be people who are doing evil things because they want to be evil. But there is space for reconciliation. If people are driven by love. Yeah, that’s misplaced sometimes.

Peterson Toscano  23:17

Yeah. And you reminded me, too, in what you just said, that when someone’s trapped in an oppressive system, they may not see that they’re oppressed, and therefore, they may end up oppressing other people. It’s not just to liberate the oppressed, but also how do we liberate the oppressor?

Miche McCall  23:37

As Johanna and Naveed were talking, erasing the past doesn’t fix it. But engaging and learning from the systems that we’re still in. And those systems that have been built for centuries, is essential for a collective liberation.

Peterson Toscano  23:56

Thanks, Miche, for that question. In a moment, you will hear listeners voicemails about questionable leaders.

Miche McCall  24:08

But first, let me share next month’s question with you. Here’s the question, “What does Quakerism have to offer society in 2024?”

Peterson Toscano  24:22

Leave a voicemail with your name and your town. The number to call is 317-Quakers. That’s 317-782-5377. 317. Plus one if calling from outside the USA.  You can also text us an email, or DM us on TikTok, Instagram, or X. Our email is a podcast(@)friends journal.org. We have these contact details in our show notes over at QuakersToday.org. 

Peterson Toscano  24:58

Now we hear answers to the question, “Who is a historical figure you admire but whose words or actions trouble you?” All right, we have some answers from people who follow us on social media. Simon breezeblock wrote from my personal Facebook account, “Here’s a big one for me at the moment. Everyone knows Alexander Graham Bell and his contributions to the world and inventing the telephone, he literally changed the world. However, what most people don’t know is despite or perhaps because of having a deaf mother and wife, he sent back Global Deaf Education and Culture by 100 or more years by campaigning for the ban on the use of sign in schools and by the deaf community more generally. Look up the Milan Conference of 1880.” 

Peterson Toscano  25:56

From the Quakers Today TikTok account, Nora writes, “FDR. love the New Deal, hate his treatment of Japanese Americans.” Nicole simply writes one name, “Nixon.” And so I’m wondering, Nicole, what do you admire about Nixon?  That got me looking into Nixon’s history, and I realized I am grateful for what Nixon did for the environment. He established the Environmental Protection Agency, or the EPA, in 1970. This has played a crucial role in regulating pollution and protecting the environment. Nixon also signed the Clean Air Act of 1970 and the Endangered Species Act of 1973. 

Peterson Toscano  26:42

. While Miche and I were at the friends General Conference Gathering at Haverford College, we shared the question with a few folks. And here’s one response. 

Ted Heck  26:52

My name is Ted Heck, and I live in Virginia. I really admire President Barack Obama. However, some of his actions in particular have definitely troubled me while he was president. There were some activities overseas that were problematic and violent; I think I did not contribute to peace in the way that I would have hoped. On the other side, you know, he did appoint more LGBTQ people to important positions in the federal government than any person before in the office of president. So I have very conflicted feelings about him.

Peterson Toscano  27:35

And from our listener, voicemail, line 317 Quakers, we have the following answers.

Ricky Juliusson  27:44

Hi there, my name is Ricky Juliusson, and I am with the Twin Cities Friends Meeting. I am responding to the query about historical figures whom you admire but whose actions and words also trouble you. And instantly, My mind went to Toby Keith, who was a brilliant country music writer and singer. And I have an astounding number of his songs in my songbook. But his politics, I just hated his after the American Shock and Awe attack on Iraq. Iraq, ​he ​came ​out ​with ​an ​album ​called ​Shock ​’em, ​y’all. ​And ​that’s ​just ​brilliant. ​Brilliant ​marketing, ​brilliant ​wordsmithing. ​And ​I ​hate ​his ​message. ​• ​• ​After ​911, ​he ​came ​out ​with ​the ​song ​Courtesy ​of ​the ​Red, ​White, ​and ​Blue. ​And ​again, ​it’s ​so ​well ​written. ​“Hey, ​Uncle ​Sam, ​put ​your ​name ​at ​the ​top ​of ​his ​list. ​And ​the ​Statue ​of ​Liberty ​is ​shaking ​your ​fist ​, and ​the ​eagle ​will ​fly. ​Man, ​it’s ​gonna ​be ​hell ​when ​you ​hear ​Mother Freedom ​start ​ringing ​her ​bell; it’s ​just ​an ​amazing, ​rousing ​war ​song ​of ​our ​era. ​It’s ​a ​great ​song. ​And ​again, ​I’m ​so ​opposed ​to ​the ​message. ​And ​so ​I ​was ​wondering, ​should ​I ​just ​get ​them ​out ​of ​my ​songbook ​altogether? ​But ​the ​songs ​I ​have ​in ​there ​are ​the ​songs ​that ​I ​do ​like, ​the ​messaging, ​and ​that ​make ​me ​laugh ​or ​cry ​or ​both. ​And ​I ​decided ​that ​I ​could ​respect ​an ​artist ​and ​his ​artistry ​without ​that ​, meaning ​that ​I ​endorse ​his ​politics ​because ​he ​has ​the ​right ​to ​his ​politics. ​And ​he’s ​an ​extremely ​intelligent ​man. ​And ​he ​died ​recently, ​and ​in ​his ​obituary, ​I ​could ​see ​that ​he ​was ​much ​more ​nuanced ​than ​I ​gave ​him ​credit ​for. ​He ​actually ​backed ​Obama’s ​first ​campaign. ​• ​So, ​there ​are ​parts ​of ​his ​politics ​that ​I ​didn’t ​agree ​with. ​In ​part, ​they ​actually ​move ​on. ​I ​got. ​So ​I’m ​also ​glad ​I ​haven’t ​written ​him off. ​Thank ​you ​so ​much.

Sharlee DiMenichi  29:32

Hello, this is Sharlee DiMenichi. I’m a member of the Lehigh Valley Friends Meeting, and I live in Allentown, Pennsylvania. And I very much admire John Woolman, of course, for his opposition to enslavement, but I am troubled by the story of him killing all those baby birds that were abandoned by their mother instead of raising them himself. I just feel a lot of concern that he would look at another species and see that it was his option to just kill members of that species. It felt like he was taking too much power into his own hands. So thank you. Goodbye.