Season 6, Episode 5 of Quakers Today

In this penultimate episode of our Quakers and Money series, co-hosts Peterson Toscano and Diana Yañez explore reparations not as a one-time transaction or a source of fear, but as an ongoing spiritual practice, a relational commitment, and a systemic movement toward abolition. Reparations are about living amends—transforming our economic relationships and material conditions so that historical and ongoing racialized violence cannot be repeated.

Together with guests Anthony “Ant” Smith and Lucy Duncan of Reparation Works, this episode looks at the broken promises of Reconstruction and examines how one Philadelphia Quaker community put faith into practice. By dedicating $500,000 to reparations, placing all discernment in the hands of Black members, and funding a free legal clinic that unlocked over $11 million in generational housing wealth, Green Street Friends Meeting offers a practical model for moving from fear to curiosity and asking what repair requires of us today.

About the Guests

Anthony “Ant” Smith Anthony “Ant” Smith is a community organizer, educator, and activist based in Philadelphia. He is a key collaborator with Reparation Works and a founder of Abolition Schools, where he leads political education and community defense initiatives. Having organized with groups like Philly Real Justice and faced federal targeting following the 2020 racial justice uprisings, Ant brings an abolitionist framework to economics, connecting the history of Reconstruction with grassroots movements for Black self-determination and material repair.

Lucy Duncan Lucy Duncan is a lifelong Quaker activist, writer, educator, and organizer who serves on the Reparations Committee at Green Street Friends Meeting in Philadelphia. She is a co-founder of Reparation Works and formerly served as Director of Friends Relations for the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC). Lucy writes extensively on Quaker faith, white supremacy, and racial healing, including her feature article “Reparations and Transgenerational Healing” published in Friends Journal.

Key Takeaways & Highlights

• Abolition as Non-Repetition: Anthony Smith emphasizes that reparations must go beyond financial payouts to change systemic conditions so racialized harm and exploitation cannot recur.
• Reconstruction Precedents: General Sherman’s Special Field Orders No. 15 proved that both the federal government and freed Black communities already understood what material resources were required for economic autonomy.
• Green Street Friends Meeting: Discovering an unrestricted reserve led the meeting to examine the origins of its wealth and place its Reparations Committee under Worship and Ministry rather than Finance.
• Centering Black Discernment: The meeting committed $500,000 over ten years to Black Germantown neighbors, placing full discernment of the funds entirely in the hands of Black members.
• Tangible Wealth Protection: A $25,000 investment in a community legal clinic helped 85 local Black families clear property deeds and write wills, preserving $11 million in generational housing equity.
• Reparations as Continuous Practice: Ant and Lucy encourage Friends to release perfectionism and embrace reparations as an ongoing spiritual discipline rooted in relationship, patience, and love.

Resource Links & References

Quakers Today Explore podcast episodes, transcripts, and archives at https://quakerstoday.org.

Friends Journal Read articles, poetry, and commentary exploring contemporary Quaker thought and witness at https://friendsjournal.org.

Reparation Works Learn about resources, frameworks, and stories of faith-based reparative justice at https://www.reparation.works/.

Friends Journal Article Read Reparations and Transgenerational Healing by Lucy Duncan: https://www.friendsjournal.org/reparations-and-transgenerational-healing/

Archive Episode: Quakers and Reparations (January 2023) Listen to the Season 1 episode featuring Lucy Duncan and Rob Peagler: https://www.friendsjournal.org/podcast/episode-3-quakers-and-reparations

Philadelphia Inquirer Article by Michaelle Bond about Green Street Meeting’s reparation work: https://share.inquirer.com/CQpwcg

Interactive Educational Tool Explore the Racial Wealth Gap Learning Simulation created by Bread for the World: https://www.bread.org/article/racial-wealth-gap-learning-simulation/

Bonus Video Feature Watch the Ant bonus Feature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwN8-z7usYI

Community Engagement Question

What does repair look like in your community? What resources—money, skills, land, legal support, space, or time—are you holding that could become part of repair?

• Voicemail (US): 317-QUAKERS (317-782-5377)
• Email: [email protected]

Episode Sponsors

Friends Fiduciary unites Quaker values with expert investing. They serve more than 460 organizations with ethical portfolios, shareholder advocacy, and a deep commitment to justice and sustainability. Learn more at https://friendsfiduciary.org.

The American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) works with communities worldwide to challenge injustice, meet urgent community needs, and build conditions for lasting peace. Learn more about the Quaker Action for Migration Justice Network at https://afsc.org.

Financial & Legal Disclaimer

All investments involve risk, and financial decisions should be made based on your individual circumstances, ideally in consultation with a qualified professional. The views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the host, Natural Investments, or its affiliates.

Diana Gisel Yañez is an Investment Advisor Representative of Natural Investments PBLLC. Natural Investments is an independent Registered Investment Advisor. Quakers Today and Friends Journal are not registered entities and are not affiliates or subsidiaries of Natural Investments.

Next Episode

Next month on Quakers Today: The Season 6 Finale of Quakers and Money. Where do Friends go from here? We reflect on the season and look at discernment, research, simplicity, and collective action.

Video Episode

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Transcript

Quakers, Reparations, and Reparative Economies

After the Civil War, there was already agreement that this would be necessary

Anthony Smith: After the Civil War, there was already agreement that this would be necessary to rebuild black people’s ability to take care of themselves. They already knew this.

Lucy Duncan: The trustees were like, oh, well, we have $4 million unrestricted reserve. And we’re like, oh, we have this money. We should do an investigation of where it came from. But also we should think about it as a spiritual resource.

This month we’re talking about reparations, which can make people shut down

Peterson Toscano: Hello, friend. I’m Peterson Toscano.

Diana Yanez: And I’m Diana Yanez.

Peterson Toscano: This is season six, episode five of the Quakers Today podcast, a project of Friends Publishing Corporation.

Diana Yanez: This season, we are talking about Quakers and money. We have talked about capitalism, inherited wealth, ethical investing, control, generosity, and the spiritual questions that come up when we ask where money comes from and where it needs to go.

Peterson Toscano: This month we’re talking about reparations, which

Diana Yanez: is one of those words that can make people shut down before the conversation even really begins.

Peterson Toscano: Absolutely. I know some people, they’ll hear reparations and think a financial payout. Some hear it and think reparations are impossible. And some may recognize the justice in reparations and yet think, I personally did not enslave anyone. So why are we talking about this?

Diana Yanez: In this episode, we’re going to move beyond those narrows ideas. Reparations are not only about a, payment. They are about repair and relationship. And when we talk about abolition, we mean changing the conditions that created harm in the first place.

Peterson Toscano: We’ll hear from Anthony Smith, who goes by Ant. Ant is with Reparation Works and Abolition Schools. Ant brings an abolitionist framework to reparations, and that really helps to widen the lens.

Diana Yanez: We will also hear from Lucy Duncan, a member of Green Street Friends meeting in Philadelphia. Green street made a major reparations commitment to black neighbors in Germantown. And Lucy helped tell the story of how that happened inside a Quaker community.

Peterson Toscano: Season 6 of Quakers Today is sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee and Friends Fiduciary. Thank you for your ongoing support.

Diana Yanez: Friends Fiduciary is a sponsor of this podcast. Sponsorship does not constitute an endorsement and we do not receive compensation based on listener investment decisions. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and does not constitute investment, legal or tax advice. Listening does not create an advisory relationship.

Anthony Ant Smith says reparations are about changing the future

Peterson Toscano: Okay, Diana, I want to start with the word itself. Reparations. I’ve often heard it used as a shorthand for money paid to repair racial harm, especially the enslavement of black Americans and its aftermath.

Diana Yanez: Yes, and money does matter. We should not spiritualize reparations in a way that avoids material conditions, material repair. But if reparations become only a financial transaction, then we miss the deeper work.

Peterson Toscano: Anthony Ant Smith frames that deeper work beautifully for us. For him, the goal of this process isn’t just about addressing the past, it’s about fundamentally changing the future.

Anthony Smith: One of the tenets of reparation is the, committal to non repeating. You won’t repeat this process anymore. And that is very close to abolition. Which is less about will you do this again or do you want to do this again versus like, you can’t do this again. Your capacity to operate like this doesn’t exist anymore. That’s an extremely large component that is missing from some people’s understanding of what reparations is. If you get a check that attempts to rectify the generational violence that accrued from chattel slavery, and if you, even if you want to expand it into replacement, Reconstruction era, Jim Crow era, civil rights to today, even if you wanted to expand that, the government would just have to be perpetually cutting checks. And it does not say how do we create the world that checks don’t need to be cut because the harm never happens in the first place. And that is what we are trying to get to. That is the sort of core connection between those two. Let’s repair the damage that occurred, but we are repairing the damage in pursuit of damage, never occurring that we need to repair. That’s the ultimate goal.

Diana Yanez: That changes the question. It is not only how much is owed, it is also what needs to change so the harm does not keep happening. This is what in 12 subgroups is called living amends.

Peterson Toscano: Yeah, which is longer term than just making amends at a moment, but living amends. And when reparations are framed only as a financial payout, it can sound like an impossible thing. But Ant is saying repair is also about systems. If the same conditions keep producing, racialized poverty, police violence, housing discrimination, debt, incarceration, unequal access to health care. Well, if

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Peterson Toscano: this keeps happening, then we are not talking about prepared.

Diana Yanez: Exactly. Money might be part of repair, but repair also asks what created the harm, what keeps the harm going, and what would make repetition impossible.

Peterson Toscano: We asked Ant for some historical grounding, and he started by unpacking one of the most famous and often oversimplified federal orders from the Reconstruction era.

Anthony Smith: I think that most people are, drawing from General Sherman’s order for 40 acres and a mule, primarily as their framework of what reparations is. There’s much more in that sort of order, such as, development of black autonomous space. So these are demands that the community made that general, was like, this makes sense. You know, this was already agreed upon. And this is part of the issue. This is also the issue of Reconstruction in that many of the things that people are trying to figure out how to do, people have already agreed that it was a good thing to do. So at some point, we are not looking at, like, let’s imagine what it would be like to rectify this. After the Civil War, there was already agreement that this would be necessary to rebuild black people’s ability to take care of themselves. They already knew this. Reconstruction era is a, federal government act that says these are the things that need to happen. And because of white supremacist violence, we understand that the military needs to protect black people while they are attempting to develop their autonomy, because white supremacist violence, of course, skyrockets after the abolition of slavery.

Peterson Toscano: That line stopped me. They already knew this.

Diana Yanez: Yes. The question was not, could anyone have known what repair required? The question was whether the country would sustain the repair once white supremacist violence rose up against it.

Peterson Toscano: So reparations are not a new radical idea. We’re talking about unfinished business here, unfinished

Diana Yanez: spiritual business, unfinished economic business, and unfinished communal business.

Green Street Friends meeting in Philadelphia is considering reparations after Michael Brown

Peterson Toscano: So let’s bring this into a Quaker meeting. Lucy Duncan is a member of Green Street Friends meeting in Germantown, Philadelphia. Green Street had been doing racial justice work for years. After Michael Brown was killed, that work intensified. The meeting studied, talked, listened, and examined how racial inequality works.

Diana Yanez: And then something happened that changed the meeting’s relationship to money. While trying to figure out how to pay for renovations for their meeting house, the community took a hard look at their accounts and found a number that changed the entire conversation.

Lucy Duncan: The trustees were like, oh, well, we have $4 million unrestricted reserve. And we’re like, oh, we have this money. We should do an investigation of where it came from, but also we should think about it as a spiritual resource. Lola Georg, who has a lot of experience in finance, taught a Spirituality of Money course. A very high number of us, probably about 30 of us attended. And it was very powerful. I was impressed because it was more anti capitalist than I expected. It was like, let’s really look at the way money works, the m way money is used in our society. And what does it mean for a budget to be a moral document that really deeply expresses your values? At the end of that, I said, oh, it’s time. Let’s start a reparations committee. I invited a few people. It was a subcommittee underneath worship and ministry, because we don’t have a, Peace and Social Concerns Committee at this time, which I actually thought was a really good place to put it because this is a spiritual question. Reparations is a spiritual question.

Peterson Toscano: That phrase, money as a spiritual resource, is a central theme of this season of Quakers Today.

Diana Yanez: Yes. A meeting budget is not just a spreadsheet. It is a moral document that is meant to support meetings in their work. A budget shows what a community protects, what it fears, what it values and what it is willing to transform.

Peterson Toscano: It’s also telling where Green Street put their reparations committee. They didn’t tuck it away as some sort of side political project. They placed it directly under worship and ministry.

Diana Yanez: That’s right, because reparations are spiritual work. That doesn’t make them any less material, though. It means the material work has to be grounded in spirit, relationship, truth telling and accountability.

Peterson Toscano: Green street had the funds and was ready to act. But before they made the final decision, they hit pause. They knew that moving money isn’t just a math issue. It requires a very blunt conversation about who decides the flow of resources.

Lucy Duncan: The Meeting decided to do $50,000 a year for 10 years

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Lucy Duncan: towards reparations and that the black members of the Meeting would be doing the discernment. There was a sort of intentional let’s, let’s have this structurally be a, ah, tool to build trust, build the strength and the muscle of trust for our, black members and that the money would be devoted to reparations towards black Germantown neighbors. There’s some real consciousness of the complicity of Quakers in a, discernment. But there was also like, we don’t need to endlessly investigate the complicity in order to make this commitment.

Diana Yanez: The amount matters. $50,000 a year for 10 years, that’s half a million dollars. But just as important is the structure. Black members of the Meeting were entrusted

Peterson Toscano: with discernment and there was no requirement that they instantly justify themselves to the white members of the Meeting.

Diana Yanez: That’s a major shift. A lot of philanthropy still preserves control for the giver. The giver wants a report, the giver wants proof. The giver wants to decide what counts as a responsible use of funds.

Peterson Toscano: But reparations is asking a different question. Who was harmed? Who has been denied resources? Who needs to lead the discernment?

Diana Yanez: Lucy is also careful not to turn research into a delay tactic. Research matters and knowing history matters. But Green Street did not need to know every detail of its own institutional complicity before saying, what? We have resources. We know enough to begin repair.

Peterson Toscano: So what does it look like? What does local systemic repair actually look like in practice? For Green Street, it wasn’t about creating a massive new program. It was about using their funds to unlock the wealth that was already sitting right next door.

Lucy Duncan: The first thing that we did was a free legal clinic for six months. It was for black Germantown neighbors. There’s a billion dollars of black wealth tangled up in unclear deeds. So to clear their deeds and to write wills, and we worked with pro bono lawyers to do a lot of the work. If somebody was a neighbor who was not meeting their income thresholds, we would pay for the service. Through that, we supported something like 85 families in securing about $11 million of housing wealth in Germantown, and we only spent $25,000 to do it. A lot of people are like, we don’t have money. We can’t do reparations. And I’m like, there’s a lot of ways.

Peterson Toscano: That is one reason I love this story. It doesn’t stay abstract. They address meaningful, practical needs with legal health deeds and wills. It’s not really sexy or exciting stuff. Right? but they’re the things that affect people’s lives.

Diana Yanez: I don’t know. I do find that stuff very sexy. As a financial planner, I’m all about it. Well, and this conversation shows repair can happen through money, but also through skill, space, relationships, and institutional power.

Peterson Toscano: Lucy said Reparation Works is developing tools to help communities assess what resources they actually have. Not only the money, but, like you were saying, the skills, space, time, and care.

Diana Yanez: And this is helpful because a lot of meetings might immediately say, we do not have $4 million. We cannot do what Green Street did.

Peterson Toscano: It’s true of most meetings, but the question is not, can we copy Green Street? Exactly. The question is, what resources are we holding? And what would repair look like where we are?

Ant says to adopt reparations as a spiritual practice

Diana Yanez: To return to Ant here, near the end of our conversation, we asked what they would say to listeners who want to engage reparations but may feel conflicted, overwhelmed, or unsure where to begin.

Peterson Toscano: Ant’s answer surprised me. Instead of giving us a political checklist or a financial strategy, he offered a completely different framework for how to hold this work.

Anthony Smith: Yeah, I, would say adopt abolition. Adopt reparations as a spiritual practice. We may not talk about it publicly, but we all have conflicts with our spiritual practice as well. And if you think about it like that, if you give it some room, give it some time, engage with it seriously, engaging out of love, out of the. The desire for people to live better, You will find a place in your heart to really accept abolition and reparation. And then from there you can figure out what it means to act on that in practice.

Diana Yanez: Foreign. Consider reparations as a spiritual practice. Not a single action, but an ongoing spiritual practice.

Peterson Toscano: And like any spiritual practice, it can be uncomfortable, it can bring up resistance because it shows us where we want control. It can reveal where our values and our budgets don’t always line up.

Diana Yanez: But practice also means we do not have to be perfect before we begin,

Peterson Toscano: and we do not have to do it alone. That is a perfect bridge to where we’re heading next, because in our season finale, we are taking everything we’ve learned about wealth, reparations and ethical investing. And we’re asking the biggest question of all now, what we will be looking

Diana Yanez: closely at what financial stewardship looks like, not just for individuals, but but for our wider systems and communities. And we want your voices in that mix. How are these conversations landing? What questions about money and justice are coming up for you in your own life or in your meeting?

Peterson Toscano: And for me, Diana, one of the questions that have come up is about reparations in Pennsylvania to the Lenape and to the other indigenous people who were displaced from their land because of the Walking Purchase, which was, an agreement that William Penn made, but then his sons acted on and totally corruptly took advantage of and was a major land grab. And it’s a question for me, as someone currently living in Pennsylvania as a Quaker, to wonder are meetings on stolen land? So we want to hear your thoughts, your questions, maybe your answer to my question. Let us know. You can leave us a voicemail at 317-QUAKERS. That’s 317-678-25377 or email us podcastriendsjournal.org.

This is the penultimate episode in our series Quakers and Money

Each episode of Quakers and Money series we are sharing resources from the Friends journal publishing world. This month we want. I want to highlight Lucy Duncan’s article Reparations and Transgenerational Healing.

Diana Yanez: In that article, Lucy writes about reparations not only through resources, but through spirit and relationships. She argues that moving money matters, but money alone does not animate the full healing potential of reparations.

Peterson Toscano: And the article includes the Green Street example where the meeting budgeted $500,000 for reparations in Germantown. But Lucy also widens the frame to transgenerational healing, to ancestors trauma and transformation.

Diana Yanez: You can read Reparations and transgenerational [email protected] and we will include a direct link in the show notes@, quakerstoday.org and

Peterson Toscano: I also want to point you to one of our very first episodes of Quakers Today, back in January 2023. It’s called Quakers and Reparations. That episode features Lucy Duncan and Rob Pegler, who was with Reparation Works at the time, along with additional resources about Quakers, Slavery, Reparative justice and the 399 manumissions and beyond project, which is amazing and heart wrenching.

Diana Yanez: Our outside resource this month is the Racial Wealth Gap Learning Simulation from Bread for the World.

Peterson Toscano: It’s not exactly a board game, but it works like an interactive group exercise. Participants move through policies and choices that show how wealth building in the United States has been shaped by race.

Diana Yanez: That connects so directly to what Lucy described at Green Street when members used a modified monopoly exercise to help people feel what happens when some players start behind and the rules keep pushing them further behind.

Peterson Toscano: The Racial Wealth Gap Learning Simulation helps people see the connections among racial equity, hunger, poverty and wealth.

Diana Yanez: This is a strong resource for a meeting, adult religious education group or committee that wants to move beyond abstract conversation and experience how systems shape outcomes.

Peterson Toscano: We will include a link to this game in the show notes along with all the other resources. You’ll find them at quakerstoday.org. Thank you for listening to this episode, our penultimate episode in our series Quakers and Money.

Diana Yanez: Thank you to Ant Smith and Lucy Duncan for their wisdom, clarity and ministry.

Peterson Toscano: Lucy and Ant go way back. In fact, when we spoke with Ant, he shared the incredible journey he was on in his personal life and how his life intersected with theses and other activists. It’s a

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Peterson Toscano: heartwarming story of community, resilience and care and just how to do good activism. It’s so good we’ve decided to put it out as a bonus feature. You can find it at the Friends Journal YouTube page and I’ll also have a link over at quakerstoday.org Lucy and Ant are both from the organization Reparation Works. Learn more about Reparation Works by visiting Reparation Works that website again. Reparation Works. You will find our show notes, links and a full transcript of this episode at quakerstoday.org, and you can also see our faces and watch video versions of us and our guest. Plus bonus conversations over on the Friends Journal YouTube page.

Diana Yanez: And we want to hear from you. What does repair look like in your meeting? Family, workplace or community? What resources are you holding that could become part of repair?

Peterson Toscano: Call us and leave a voicemail at 317-QUAKERS. That’s 317-782-53771. If you’re calling from outside the United

Diana Yanez: States, you can also send us an email at [email protected]

Peterson Toscano: Season 6 of Quakers Today is sponsored by Friends Fiduciary. Friends Fiduciary unites Quaker values with expert investing. They serve more than 460 organizations with ethical portfolios, shareholder advocacy, and a deep commitment to justice and sustainability. Through $20 million in planned giving and $1 million in annual support to 70 organizations, they empower donors to drive social good. Serving as trustee for more than 80 trusts, friends fiduciary blends values with action, supporting equity through advocacy and charitable impact. You can learn more at friendsfiduciary.org

Diana Yanez: This season of Quakers Today is also sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee. The American Friends Service Committee works with communities worldwide to challenge injustice, meet urgent community needs, and build conditions for lasting peace. AFSC works toward a future where everyone can thrive, has access to legal status, and is safe from detention and deportation. AFSC programs support migrants and refugees at each stage, stage of their journey, offering legal services, human rights monitoring and humanitarian relief. The AFSC Quaker Engagement Team is convening a Quaker Action for Migration Justice Network to coordinate Friends witness in opposition to cruel immigration policies and violent enforcement. If your community is interested in joining the network, please reach out to Friends and visit afsc.org for more info.

Peterson Toscano: In our next episode, we’re going to keep asking, now what? After talking about capitalism, wealth, ethical investing and reparations, what do Friends actually do?

Diana Yanez: Yes, we will look at next steps, discernment research and collective action.

Peterson Toscano: And if you’re wondering about boycotts, are they effective? What should you boycott? How does that work? There’s going to be so many things we’re going to look at. I’m, excited about next episode because it actually hits very close to home because we had to do some major research about the platform where we record these episodes. And so you’ll find out about that, which was a deep dive for me to learn how to research, but also to learn how to move forward when ethical questions arise. So thank you, friend, for spending this time with us.

Diana Yanez: May you grow in creativity, curiosity and compassion.

Peterson Toscano: And Diana, before we go, I would love to hear a disclaimer.

All investments involve risk, and financial decisions should be made based on your individual circumstances

Diana Yanez: All right, here it goes. All investments involve risk, and financial decisions should be made based on your individual circumstances, ideally in consultation with a qualified professional. The vehicle views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the host, natural investments, or its affiliates.

Peterson Toscano: This is Quakers Today. And, I’m Peterson Toscano.

Diana Yanez: I’m Dana Yanez. Thank you for listening.

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